Church Discipline

Transcript

GRM 1187
06/17/2018
Church Discipline
Matthew 18:15-20; Selected Verses
Gil Rugh

I shared with you this morning that this evening I wanted to talk about the matter of church discipline, partly just because it seems to flow naturally out of our discussion about biblical leadership in the church and elders, since elders do get involved in a significant way in the church discipline process. Again, I’m just highlighting these various areas we do on Sunday night, and then your questions can direct on anything specifically you might want. We’ve done more in-depth studies of these subjects like 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1 on elders and so on, so now I just want to highlight and overview the area of church discipline but maybe just pick up where we left off with elder leadership. I had a little diagram that I didn’t share with you last week, but we could put that up. This is a little bit how I see the leadership in the church unfolding and how we, at Indian Hills, function.

Jesus Christ is the head of the church. The end of Ephesians 1 speaks about God has given Him authority over all things and is head of the church. First Peter 5 talks about Him as the Chief Shepherd, and then He appoints under shepherds so under Christ, in the leadership in the local church, are elders. We looked at synonymous expressions, elder, overseer, pastor, different words giving a little different picture, but all referring to the same person the same office, elders, and the qualifications are laid out, there are about twenty-one of them when you put together 1 Timothy chapter 3 and Titus 1. We didn’t go through those but it’s very important for us to be aware of what they are, they’re really just the qualifications of a godly man, that’s what’s required.

Then, under them are deacons, and they’re the only other group that are described in detail, as far as qualifications are concerned, again that’s in 1 Timothy chapter 3. In our structure, the elders, who form the Board of Elders of our local church, when they meet as a board, they don’t represent different areas of ministry, they sit there with the responsibility of the oversight of the whole church. That doesn’t mean they don’t address areas when they come up, but each individual elder does not, for example, represent an area of ministry, but the deacons, who serve with the elders and under the elders leadership, are delegated to certain areas of ministry, and have responsibility for those areas of ministry. Again, they go through the process like the elders do, when they’re appointed, and you, as a congregation, have opportunity to address the candidacy of the deacons as you do the elders after they’ve shared their testimony, so you’re familiar with that process.

I put gifted men here under deacons because there are those who have the gift, for example of administration, so they would naturally be involved in oversight in areas, individuals here, and then you have the congregation, and we have the diversity of gifts, as the body works together. There is order that God has established for the local church just like He has in every area, and we looked at that starting with the creation of man as male and female. There is order that does not mean spiritual inferiority, and we noted that in passages like 1 Corinthians 11 where Christ is subject to the Father, but He is equal in His deity and all the attributes of deity, all the fullness of deity dwells in Him in bodily form, so there’s no inferiority, in that sense. For the world, as they look at things, they want to equate submissiveness with inferiority. Those are the battles that they create between men and women and all other areas as well, so that’s a little bit of the leadership structure of our local church and we believe that’s the pattern set down for us in Scripture. Not unique obviously to just our local church.

I want to come to the matters that impact the church, all areas, the elder’s responsibility to be sure, the doctrinal standard and practice of the church is consistent with the Word of God. We have a detailed doctrinal statement that is available to you so when teachers are appointed, and the ministry is going on, that doesn’t mean everybody who attends here would agree with every doctrine, but they cannot teach doctrines. We have had on occasion when sometimes people have come particularly from cult ministries, they come and say they’re just here to learn, but after they’re here for a little bit they want to talk to people and spread their teaching. When they’re talked to, if they are not open to make the adjustments, then we have to tell them they wouldn’t be permitted to come here while they are promoting contrary ideas and that would also be so for distributing literature that we would not agree with and so on. Part of the elders responsibility is to be sure the church remains sound in doctrine.

Turn to Titus 1 if you would; this will lead us because it does involve areas of church discipline. We won’t be going into all the details but Titus chapter 1, just as an example, he talks about Titus. We looked at this previously, he’s supposed to appoint elders in every city, in Crete where Titus has been left, and then the qualifications, not as in detail as 1 Timothy 3. That’s why we put the two together but the same basic qualifications that he must be one, verse 9, “holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching,” and this is required so that he will be both able to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

Why? There are many “rebellious men, empty talkers deceivers,” they must be silenced for they are “upsetting whole families teaching things which they should not teach.” This is a serious responsibility of the elders because the church is the pillar and support of the truth. If we lose our hold and emphasis on the truth and allow the truth to be corrupted, everything else is impacted by that, so that’s a major area of responsibility. The oversight of the body are the general elders, decisions are made, sometimes they’re finances, they oversee the finances. When we do special projects like a building or remodeling or things like that, the elders have to work through the finances. Sometimes there’s criticism, sometimes there’s misunderstanding. For example, several years ago, we went through a remodel and we had finances committed to that to give the elders an idea where we were.

Some people misunderstood that that would be the total cost of the project, but what the elders looked at was, we had significant money committed that we would undertake the project, but did not understand that meant that’s all the project would cost and our pattern is, we will complete the project once we’ve undertaken it. Now obviously, there may be some curtailments that have to take place if it’s going beyond what we believe but we’ve evaluated things along the way. We had property, we had evaluated this before we went in, would we rather keep the property and curtail the project, limit it or would we rather be open to sell property if we needed to. Well, we decided the priority was to do the remodel, as it needed to be done and sell excess property; like units we own and so on. Those kinds of things go through the process of the elders thinking, and some criticism came that the elders let things get out of control. They were never out of control. I knew regularly what the costs were and where we were, and it was passed on, the elders are made aware of these kinds of things, so the elder’s responsibility is to oversee the work.

Another area of major concern, what I want to talk with you this evening, is about the matter of church discipline and how we proceed on that so we might as well start with Matthew 18 since that is a major passage on this. We’re just going to highlight things, and then I want to remind you of how we proceed as a church. There are always going to be a certain amount of disagreement. Maybe I could read you—when I want to put the elders to sleep, I read to them from the Puritans that I tend to like—one of my favorite Puritans is Jeremiah Burroughs and he wrote a book called “Irenicum.” It wasn’t published until after his death. Irenicum comes from the Greek word for peace, and the subtitle is “Healing the Divisions Among God’s People” but as he talks about this he says, “There are many things in Your word that we . . .” and talking about Thy word is what he says referring to God’s word that we “. . . and our brethren have different apprehensions.” “Matters of discipline are acknowledged by all not to be revealed with such clarity but in such a way that truly conscientious, upright, diligent men may not be able to, in many things, to see the mind of Christ in them.”

Then he gives a word of warning. “Though justice were to be managed by the most holy wise self-denying and meek men upon the earth, yet there would be much danger in winding it up to the highest, for it is administered by men full of infirmities. “Therefore, God will not have it strained too high. He will rather have love to be above justice than justice to be above love. “There will be a certain subjectivity. You get into personal actions, personal activity, sometimes there’s clarity sometimes not,” as he notes, obviously, he’s got a whole book on the subject but it’s easier on them to deal with doctrinal differences because the Scripture is clear on that, when you get to personal conduct, there are areas that are clear, areas that are less clear.

The elders have the responsibility, when it gets to a certain level, to be involved in working through these things. Matthew 18 is taken as a basic passage and we usually look at verses 15 to 20. “If your brother sins go show him his fault, in private “that’s the first step and it’s a sin against you, so you have a margin. Some of the manuscripts, if your brother sins against you, the point is there even if it’s not addressed there because down in verse 21, Peter asks “how often shall my brother sin against me,” so he takes it that way. You’re going to be the first one if you’re sinned against, you’re going to be usually the one who’s aware of it but when sin takes place, you have to go and confront the person.

“If he listens you’ve won your brother if he doesn’t listen you take two or three with you,” so that process, that’s the second step. Well the brother won’t stop the sin, “no and you don’t have any right to tell me I can’t do this,” but it’s clearly sin, so you take two or three witnesses, who can confirm it. You’ll note it’s quoted the two or three witnesses from the Old Testament, particularly Deuteronomy 19, if he listens to them, then you know God will take care of it. If he refuses to listen to them then you “tell it to the church, and if he won’t listen to the church, then he’s like a Gentile and tax-gatherer,” then he’s viewed as an unbeliever. For these Jewish listeners to talk about a Gentile or a tax-gatherer, someone who’s unclean, remember Peter wouldn’t eat with Gentiles, they’re unclean. The tax gatherers, even when they were Jews carrying it out, were viewed with distain, because they served a pagan empire and served selfish desires.

You’ll note verse 19, “if two or three of you agree on anything, they ask, it shall be done for them. Where two or three are gathered in My name, there I am in their midst.” This is in the context of the church discipline. We sometimes quote this but we ought to keep in mind the context here, because it goes right on to Peter to follow up on the discussion of church discipline. In other words, you’ve had the two or three witnesses, it’s been brought to the church. There it’s settled. What I think is important, sometimes we come study these verses, but what goes before and afterwards, remember context determines meaning and we want to put it into the context.

The last verse before verse 15 is verse 14. It’s “not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish,” talking about like verse 10, “see that you do not despise one of these little ones, I say to you; their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.” He’s talking here about believers, those that belong to Christ, and his intention is none of them perish, so these are steps when one of God’s children begin to wander, how we get them back to where they should be, that’s the whole goal, to restore them to right relationship with God and God’s people. If we lose the context, church discipline can become something harsh, vindictive. We think we must bring the judgment of God down on these. The goal is to restore them. It’s not God’s will that one of these little ones perish and how gracious God is to speak about us as His little children, the objects of His love and care, so this is how godly people are to help when one of God’s people begins to wander. We don’t exercise discipline on the world.

In 1 Corinthians 5, Paul says “I have nothing to do with the world and their conduct,” but we have to deal with fellow believers and it’s for their good, and then Peter asks, “how long you forgive? I mean you confront the brother and he agrees, and says yes, it’s been sin I’m going to stop it, I won’t, the next thing you know, he does it again. Peter’s question is, “Lord how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him?”

And that’s a good question. The Jews said three times and we won’t go back they used a couple of Old Testament references to support that. Peter is really going to show he can be magnanimous and, you know, wants to put it in the best light to Christ so he doesn’t look like he’s not maybe asking a good question, I guess. “Up to seven times” and then you’re familiar with Jesus’s answer, “not up to seven times,” in other words it’s limitless, “up to seventy times seven.” You’re not keeping track. If he sins against you, and acknowledges the sin, and indicates a desire to deal with it, you forgive him. What happens if it happens again, and again, and again, and you’ll note verses 22 down through verse 35 all are about how you handle forgiving him, so we sometimes lose the weight here. Not minimizing the importance of church discipline and handling it properly, but we never want to lose sight of the fact, otherwise we get to what the Puritan that I just read to you get to, we get so caught up with justice that we lose the concept of love and what this is about, restoring this person. We get the idea we really have to punish them for what they did and he not only did it once he did it twice, not only did it twice he did it ten times. Not only did it ten times he did it twenty times and we say well there’s a limit.

Sometimes we talk about I can forgive but I can’t forget. Some who write on forgiveness say when you can’t forget, you haven’t forgiven. What forgiveness is, it’s taken care of, it’s done and the context, were not going to do the doctrine of forgiveness now, but God has forgiven us so graciously, so completely. No matter what someone does to me and how many times they do it, it’s nothing compared to my offenses and sins against a holy God and how many times He’s forgiven me. He expects me to manifest His gracious character in my dealing with someone else, so that’s the context here.

Another Puritan that I read, when I do some reading at home and he speaks about this, John Owens. The Puritans are really very wordy. John Owens has 16 volumes. Now they did their writings in the 1600’s, they didn’t even have typewriters. Man, you would have writer’s cramps and everything else going on, but anyway he writes in volume 16 about church discipline. He reminds us, he said there’s a reason God gives three steps. Don’t rush the judgment, give each step a chance to work, the Spirit to use that, don’t just rush through the steps like you’re anxious to get to the final step and get them out.

Allow the Spirit of God, so we want to keep that in mind, that doesn’t mean we want to delay it indefinitely, but it’s good to be reminded, what we’re looking for is, we love these people. We want to bring them back and we didn’t just tell them step one and here we are, yes or no and if you don’t respond right, we go to step two and by the end of the week you’ll be out of here. It’s not that kind of callousness. We confront them and we’re willing to talk to them about it, we’re willing to meet with them again. You’re trying to get them to see the seriousness of where they are and that’s why you bring in other witnesses and so on. The final step is, if they won’t listen, it comes to the church and that’s where the elders may get involved. They might have, for one reason or another, been involved but we encourage it to be dealt with. Then the elders act as representatives of the church, and usually if there’s this sin at this level, then it comes to the elders, and part of the elder’s responsibility is to be sure sin has been committed.

I just want to say aside, church discipline is not the handle for matters of disagreement within family members, for example. I’m surprised the bitterness that can go back twenty-five years and the bitterness comes down to today. You know this family member wanted this family member disciplined and since the church wouldn’t do it--in one case, I think of, both sides of the family left the church because this side of the family thought this part of the family should be disciplined. This part of the family thought this side of the family should be disciplined and since the elders wouldn’t discipline either side, everybody left.

With the elders, this is disagreement among your family. It’s not the kind of issue that the church deals with. It’s not the kind of sin the church has—it doesn’t mean there’s not sin in the family here, but it’s not the sin that we can deal with. You don’t like the way this family member did this, you don’t like the way this family did this, you’d like to arbitrate, but they’re not looking for arbitration. Sometimes you get to this point. They want the elders to act so they can be vindicated because if the elders take my side, then that’ll mean the other side were the bad guys. Well that’s not the point of discipline and not the way the elders would get involved in these, so there are situations and it does cause hard feelings, and this has happened multiple times in the years I’ve been here.

I remember talking to one person, they hadn’t attended Indian Hills for years, yet he said, “you know, we should be at Indian Hills but this person, part of my family is so bitter, they will never darken the door.” I said “well, when did that happen?” “That happened years ago, and that was among the family.” He said, “I know but it’s just as alive, and they’re just as bitter as they were the first day.” Now I may be dealing with an unbeliever because Hebrews does tell us to be careful that no root of bitterness spring up among you and defile many, Esau being an example of such a godless person, but we have variety. That’s why he says, sometimes these things aren’t resolved.

A Board of Elders has to look at it and say what has been done, what is the situation here. Does this rise to this level? Is this something that brings it to that level? Not everything that someone’s done wrong comes to that level. We all “stumble in many ways,” James says. Well not every stumble is a church discipline issue, so the personal issue becomes crucial here. Before we read some other passages, let me put the questions up. I gave you some questions regarding elder decisions generally. Here are questions to ask yourself regarding church discipline.

Number one. Are you the one who sinned? If you’re the one who sinned, your responsibility is to recognize it as sin, acknowledge it, repent and stop the sin. That’s the first thing if you’re confronted by it and the person says, what you did and how you treated me was sin. I agree it was sin, I’m guilty, so if you’re the one who sinned you’re responsibility, repent, stop it, get right with the Lord and with other believers.

Second question. Are you the one sinned against? Well, you’re responsible to let the person know. You know you sinned against me, you’d be obviously the first one. If you become aware of the sin that someone else has done and it is that kind of sin and you’ve been aware of it, then you would be the one to go contact. But have you been sinned against? If you’ve been sinned against and the person repents, your responsibility is to forgive. That’s made clear here for Peter from verses 21 and following. In light of his question, how often would I forgive somebody? Well if you’re the one who sinned, you have to repent. If the one who sinned repents, then if you’ve been sinned against you forgive him, and that means it’s taken care of.

We have to go to a third step. How are you involved in this because obviously, there can be sin. Are you a witness? Remember, two or three witnesses, so yes, I’m aware of that sin they’ve done. I’ll go with you to talk to them about that, so maybe that’s how you’re involved. You didn’t sin, you weren’t the one sinned against, but you are aware of the sin. You have direct information, one who has direct relevant information. So, if you’re a witness, you have direct and not just I heard about. I heard. Someone told me, that’s not acceptable. You have direct relevant information, then you can be involved that way. The third possibility is, perhaps you’re one involved in restoration. Remember Galatians 6:1, “if you see a brother overtaken in a fault, you who are spiritual restore such a one.” That would involve you in this.

Just let me say, sometimes the problem gets magnified when we get people that aren’t involved in having committed the sin or having been sinned against. I’ve had people numerous times come and just say I can’t forgive that person. I say well wait a minute. Just how are you involved in this? I ask the third question, because as far as I can tell you weren’t the one sinned against, and basically all the information you have about this has come through the hearsay and the--you know, rattling around. Just how are you involved? Well I can’t forgive them. Well you don’t have to forgive them because they didn’t do anything against you.

You know we live in a society where now people are asking forgiveness for something that supposedly one of their ancestors may have done in 1840. I don’t even know who my ancestor was in 1840, and I have no reason to apologize because I didn’t do it. So this idea that somehow, the way we might be involved when a fellow Christian sins and they’ve acknowledged their sin and we’re aware of it, we’re happy to agree, you have been forgiven. God has graciously forgiven you, and I’m happy to help you get back on track in whatever way I can but the idea that everybody can take personal offense because someone does something wrong or sins, I think that we have to be careful. Peter doesn’t ask how often shall a brother somewhere sin and I forgive him. You know God does the forgiveness, ultimately.

Now when I’ve been involved by being sinned against, then I have to be ready to acknowledge, yes, I’m not holding that against you and it’s nothing to me. I want to have the attitude that I’ve forgiven before they come and seek forgiveness, but these kinds of questions because people get involved in things and I’ve shared, I’ve been in discussions. How were you involved? Why does this pertain to you? You’re a person who has nothing but has heard about it, no wonder you’re frustrated upset, angry. You’re involved in something that has nothing to do with you.

What are you supposed to do with that? That’s why sometimes we ought to be ready to tell people there’s no reason for you to be telling me this. It has nothing to do with me. It’s not my business. If they have something that should be made aware, perhaps they should go to the person who sinned. That would be the first thing to do. I’ve become aware you’re embezzling at the business we both work in. You want to go and confront them first, then you may have to confront others and that may come to the elders but that doesn’t mean you have to go and tell ten people. Well, because, you know…..what are we doing? And in the church, we run around and tell everybody if we think we have something. I just think, you know, we muddy the waters.

Now the elders are responsible to act representing the congregation. Where do we go with this because not every accusation should be brought to the congregation? When it is going to be presented to the congregation, you can’t go through every detail. It’s not good for the congregation, it’s not good for anybody. That’s why we appoint elders. I say, we have elders, nobody’s questioning their godly character and nobody’s doubting their commitment to biblical truth. Then something like this comes up and all of a sudden people are convinced the elders are not doing their job. Why, last week you thought they would have, if I had asked you, you would have said they were godly men committed to the word. I have no question about their character. This week, suddenly they’ve all abandoned their commitment to biblical truth and being faithful to God. That makes no sense. We put men in that position and then we trust them.

They have to sort through. You have no idea the hours involved in this and sorting through, sifting out rumors and evaluating. Some are more clear than others are, but the elders have to work through it. Then it gets presented to the congregation. You just can’t take the time and go through every meeting, every private conversation that’s going on that would just put it out there as the gossip realm because people that have no need to know. We shouldn’t have elders that are not godly men and when the elders are appointed they don’t just out of the air--it always comes up, something like you know well the elders are trying to protect Gil or the elders are afraid of this. Well then they’re not godly men, they shouldn’t be elders.

Someone came to ask me about a new church, wanting to talk to me about appointing elders. I said when things are going fine and smooth, any man could be an elder. You need elders who will be faithful through difficulty. That’s why you need godly men who meet the requirements of Scripture. They’re not perfect but they’re godly. That doesn’t mean they could never make a mistake, but they will be accountable to God. Moses was appointed by God yet he made some serious mistakes. He wasn’t even allowed to go into the promised land, but that didn’t disqualify him. That doesn’t mean the elder’s every decision, and every decision there’s a certain subjectivity to it, as I read to you, but you don’t have all the information the elders do.

Well, I heard this and this is gone and there are people that have been gone from this church for years, but every time something comes up at Indian Hills, they think they should throw a log on the fire of controversy. Why are you so bitter? So the elders are not in an easy position. That’s why you settle….we have godly elders. We try to bring this up when we don’t have anything going on and say do you have any question about the godly character of the elders that have been appointed. Do you see anything ungodly going on in the character or conduct of the elders? Have they not been faithful to the word? What makes you think all the elders will agree together? Let’s not do what’s biblical here. They’re not godly men then, but we’re told the Holy Spirit appoints the elders, and they have met the qualifications.

We’ve worked through it and we’ve asked for your input. Do you know of anything the elders should know? Please contact an elder. But then as soon as a decision comes up, well, we don’t have to follow them anymore. So church discipline is always going to be difficult, but you know the process is not difficult. You don’t know how many times the Board of Elders has worked through these things. You only know about it if it becomes public, but we’ve had a number of cases we’ve worked through since one has become public, because if that person comes--we’ve had cases where the person has been in the week they were going to be announced. They contact an elder, and say, what I’ve been doing is sin. I want to get that right. A person came in and saw me. The second time he had been in the week he was to be announced. I mean what do you do, he says, I repent.

Now wait, I want to be careful and we’re not going into the doctrine of repentance, but there are fifty-six uses of the noun and verb for repent, the Greek word, metanoeo and metanoia, the noun and the verb for the word repent. Fifty-six uses, I tried to work through each one as well as reading theology on the doctrine of repentance. I can’t find anywhere, anytime God says it’s my responsibility to be sure your repentance is genuine, or your responsibility is to be sure someone else’s is. What does Christ say to Peter, verse 21? “Peter came and said to Him, ‘Lord how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him?’” We like to insert there, Peter, first be sure his repentance is genuine. He doesn’t say that he just says, “up to seven times?” No, Jesus says that’s not enough, “up to seventy times seven.”

Well Lord that makes me question whether his repentance is genuine. You see that’s not my responsibility. I don’t know, obviously when a person sins again, and again, about the 489th time or whatever I begin to question the genuineness. Come over to Luke chapter 17, different occasion the same point and this is God’s little ones again and that’s where it would be better a millstone be tied around their neck than he causes one of God’s little ones to stumble. What happens when a little one stumbles, verse 3? “Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him, if he repents, forgive him.” Again, we like to insert there—I can’t tell you the number of discussions I’ve had on this, if he repents, be sure his repentance is genuine. If you’re sure it is, forgive him. I’m not God’s editor.

I have emails or correspondence that I’ve received that “you’ve corrupted the doctrine of repentance. You’re no longer lordship” and everything else. I don’t know, what it says if he sins against you seven times a day and returns to you seven times saying I repent, forgive him. Wait a minute if he sins against me seven times a day, he comes after the first time, I can understand. The second time well anybody can make, you know. Third time I’m beginning to lose patience. Fourth time I think you’re just making it up. Fifth time, sixth time by then probably say get out of here and don’t come back. What does He say? Forgive him, don’t you know all I’m responsible to do, do what God tells me. That’s why I put those steps up there.

If he sins, he has to repent. If he sins against me and says I repent, I have to forgive him. Now how am I going to give an account to the Lord if when I stand before Him and He says he said he repented but you didn’t forgive him? Well Lord, he did it five times in one day. That’s not what I asked you. I know how many times he did it. I asked you, did you forgive him? Well I did, the first four times. Did I tell you to forgive him the first four times? What did I tell you? Well I didn’t think his repentance was genuine. What did I tell you? Well you said forgive him. Sometimes I come to the Word and I say, what’s the problem here? We find ways, even as people who believe the Scripture, to massage the Scripture so we can find an excuse not to have to do what it says. You know sometimes, it’s hard.

Come over to 1 Timothy 5 and then were going to have to stop for questions. There are many passages, but I don’t see any difference myself anywhere on this, this is about elders. Since this would pertain to me, and any elder, the elders it says in verses 17 and 18 about remuneration for elders, verse 19, “do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.” Now that’s the same as Matthew 18, two or three witnesses. I think what he’s doing here; elders get no special attention, they’re not treated any differently. Since it’s an elder, he can’t say well you know I’m an elder, you have to have ten witnesses against me. Nor can you say the sin of an elder is so great one witness will do it, since they have to be above reproach. No, you take two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin, present tense here, continue sinning and I take it that would be like we have. He doesn’t break down all the steps but that’s the issue in Matthew 18. They won’t stop sinning. Then you rebuke them in the presence of all because if you can’t get them to stop, you rebuke them.

Now I just want to call your attention to a word here because some pick up on this word, “rebuke” and want to stress it is a harsh word. It’s strong, it is, but come back to Matthew 18. I should have told you to keep a finger here. You might miss it, this word rebuke and it is a firm strong word and it is an imperative. It is a command, 1 Timothy 5. But the first step of discipline is Matthew 18 verse 15. “If your brother sins go and show him his fault.” We have that translated show him his fault or you note that number 2 in front of show. You go to the margin, reprove. It’s the same exact Greek word. Rebuke and it’s in an imperative mood as it is in Timothy. It’s not you’re dealing with the one differently than the other. It shows the elder gets no different treatment, he doesn’t get preferential treatment, nor does he get less consideration. So he says here, you deal with it the same way. You have to have two or three witnesses. If they continue in sin, you rebuke them. If they don’t stop sinning, then you rebuke them before everyone, so you have the summary there.

As I read some and they make such a point the elders have to rebuke and this is serious, but be careful because in the first step, that’s what you do in chapter 1 verse 15. The first step is you go, you show your brother his sin, and that’s a firm clear rebuke. Obviously, the sin is clear, but don’t overblow it, as though really, you have to make something of this because this sin is so….it deserves every rebuke. Well, whatever you’re doing with it in Matthew, you do with it here. You do rebuke, a firm clear rebuke but this is in love. The goal is to restore, not to destroy him. The goal is not to get rid of him, it’s to get him back to where he needs to be. There’s to be no partiality and that’s helped our elders. We’ve dealt with this over the years and part of it is because of the thousands of people that have been through Indian Hills. When something with discipline comes up it’s not, well, we’re wringing our hands how should this be handled, what do we do?

Like in one of the cases one of the elders just said we just handle this just like every other discipline case, so the process is not difficult, we’ve worked through it enough, you know what you’re doing; you know what needs to be—we know what we’re looking for. That doesn’t mean the elders are perfect but the elders are handling it. Pray for the elders. It doesn’t mean could the elders ever have made a mistake. They’re human, they could and that doesn’t mean you agree with every decision of the elders, but then again the Lord didn’t make you an elder or someone else. I’m not criticizing you I’m but you—people all of a sudden think because of the conversations I said, why do you think the elder appointed you as the super elder to decide if the elders He appointed are doing the right job. If you agree with their decision or not, so, they have to subject themselves and offer you all the reasons for their decisions so that, you can give either your approval or disapproval. Where did that come from why didn’t God appoint them to be elders.

I take it God will give the wisdom and discernment and the grace necessary for those He appoints to carry out His appointment. That’s true with our spiritual gifts, it’s true with everything, and there are many verses but we’re not going to look at those because I’ll just take the time and let you ask whatever questions you have, so get them together in your mind. Maybe you have them on a different subject. They don’t have to be on this subject. Now let me gather up my materials, I’m going to go down to the desk here, and then I’m going to ask you for whatever questions you came with. It doesn’t have to be on this subject. I don’t care what it’s on, as long as it is something I can answer. If I can’t, then we’ll have to let it wait.

Question, “is an apology to the offended necessary for forgiveness from God?” I think it depends on the situation. I’ve used Marilyn and myself as an example. Long ago we decided she was going to make mistakes and I might rarely, also. I’m joking, but we just agreed, if I do something dumb, she’s not going to be sitting, pouting, waiting for me to come and apologize. She’ll know I did something dumb, something wrong, sinful, when I didn’t treat her very good. She’s not going to be waiting for me to come and say I’m sorry, I shouldn’t have done that. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don’t, so it depends on the situation. We want to be ready to forgive. I mean God forgives me before I come and ask Him. I have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous and He’s there interceding for me, as the devil accuses me, and I still, in my sometimes blindness by my sin, haven’t gotten there but while Satan’s there to say, “see, he sinned,” Christ is there to say, “yes but it’s forgiven.” Now I don’t want to be withholding. Well, they never came and apologized and I’m not going to forgive them until they do. I want to be able to say I’ve already forgiven it, nothing between us but I want it to be made right between us.

Someone who came to see me, and not that long ago, says you don’t have to come see me, you’ve talked to other elders. He says “no, I want to come tell you” and I said, “well come that’s great,” and I said, “I appreciate your coming and I want you to know there is nothing between us. It’s done. The slate’s clean and now I just want to help you get on track.” So, you know we want to deal with that, so it may be the person needs to come and should come, so it depends, you can’t go on to every little thing. Sometimes you said something and afterwards you think about it and say I probably shouldn’t have said it that way. I better get on the phone and call and apologize. You know we’ll spend all our time, so I think being sensitive, is this something that could be between us. It’s that kind of thing. I want to make it right and certain things that do that.

I like to talk about Marilyn, there are certain things we probably want to talk through. Marilyn’s great, she just gets up the next morning, she gets up happy. I get up trying to figure out if I lived through the night. I just I don’t even trust myself to shave until things go by a little bit but she’s great. What’s going on? You know I was grumpy last night, and I say you know I was grumpy last night. Well of course you were, you’re always grumpy. Well, you can joke about it. We don’t have to make something out of things so it’s a longer answer. I think it depends on the situation for both. If you think that person would want to, or it would be good to clear the air, and sometimes it just gives an occasion for you both to talk and you both realize we’re both comfortable with each other and glad that that’s taken care of.

Somebody have something—over here. “Yeah, say Gil, I have a question on the organization of the church. Christ is the head, elders and deacons and then I believe next you said other gifted men and mentioned administrative talents. As long as I’ve been here, we’ve had an administrative type pastor or not type but a man filling that job. I was just wondering if you could expand on that or as we all have as believers, we all have a gift. If you could just have anything else to say on that I guess.” Gil, “yes, when I put that down I was thinking of the gifts of administration like are permeating through the congregation and so they take place on different levels. You’re sitting next to Roxanne, that’s good. You know she coordinates and oversees the caring of the property, so that involves the administration, seeing that things are organized, and it goes on with the bible school. It goes on in all the areas, so I’m thinking more of the gifts on that.

That’s just one of the gifts but it would help in other gifts, like people who have helps and serving gifts. Well a person would help coordinate, they’re doing that, hospital visits everything going on, so I would just put that in there, as that would be helpful, you know, is going on. I don’t want you to think its leadership here, the elders and they’re involved in everything, they’re really not. You know there’s all this going on out here that they’re not involved in, and sometimes a pastor like for Jeff and his responsibility as an elder, but he has then specific responsibility in oversight with the staff and areas of the ministry and so on. That would be on a different level when it’s connected to his role as elder, but I had that as more like the gift. We’ll talk more specifically about the gifts, because I want to talk about, in fact, I was just reading a review in a journal this afternoon of a new book out promoting the charismatic view of the gifts, by a professor. I want to deal with some of the gifts but I was looking at the gift of administration as it permeates the body.

Yeah, hi Pastor Gil I wonder if you could expand on Matthew 5:23. It sounds like we should take the responsibility if someone is mad at us for something. It says, “therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,” so is that stating that even if someone is mad at you, and you’re not sure what it is, that you’ve got to have harmony with him. Do you make the response? I think that’s a good point, but if you’re aware someone has something against you, they think you’ve done something wrong to them, then you want to make that right. Is it a misunderstanding? You know, what is the problem between us? You know we ought to be ready to make that--I’ve made some contacts like that because I’ve heard or read something or somebody has sent something. They strongly disagree with something I’ve done or said.

I’ve sometimes called and asked if we could get together. Is it possible for us to talk about it? Is there a misunderstanding? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t, so yeah, I think we want to be sensitive to that. You can’t go around to everybody who’s attacking you about everything, but you know there are people, you’re concerned. If there’s something that they believe is between you, let’s deal with it. Yeah, so I don’t think we have to wait. You know, I hear that you’re bothered by something or troubled or I know something I’ve done has troubled you, well if Dave’s troubled by it, he ought to call me. If I know you’re troubled by it, maybe I ought to call you kind of thing, so yeah, I think that’s what he’s talking about there. We want things to be right between us.

That’s why I don’t understand ongoing bitterness. I’ve shared with you, people I’ve called that have written me, and I just say can we get together and talk. They won’t return my calls. I’ve left voicemails, could we just talk. I won’t even bring up, I just would like to hear what you have to say because I’d like to clarify if I can, and at least know where you are. You know I think we have to have that openness. I don’t want to think, you know let me put this in a personal level. People leave Indian Hills, that doesn’t mean we have to be enemies. If God wants you in another church, wants a person in another church, I want you where God wants you. If He wants you someplace else you won’t be effective here, so whatever’s come up if He wants you in another place--I’ve told people when they’ve come to talk to me and some have--we’re going to leave. I said, well you know we’ll miss you, but pour your life into that ministry. You won’t be a help there if you’re trying to make it at Indian Hills or you’re there because you’re unhappy here. I say you know we can be friends.

I meet people from different times. I meant somebody this afternoon after lunch. Hadn’t seen him for years, he used to attend Indian Hills and attends another church and then you just shake hands and hug. You talk about how good it is to see each other and he told me about the sermon he heard that morning and the church he’s attending and we talked about some things. We don’t have to dislike each other kind of things, so sometimes things get said and things get done. You know we all say things that—well wish I hadn’t said it that way. I wish I hadn’t put it that way, but as we say, it’s water over the dam so to speak. You can’t be calling on everything but people we’ve exchanged letters. Maybe it was a hard separation but now I’ve had good contact with them and the past is the past. We don’t have to revisit it, its done and if you ever want to come back to Indian Hills come back. If the Lord’s using you, there I’m excited for that and so that kind of relationship. I think that’s what He is building up, we want to be sensitive to each other and do what we can to build the relationship.

If one of your children, physical children, is troubled by something, you want to sit down with them and say what’s wrong-- kind of thing, you don’t just say, well if somethings wrong, they’ll have to come and tell me. You want also to bring that out and help resolve it, that’s the way we want our body to be.

Second Thessalonians 3 and 1 Corinthians 5:11 talk about not associating with those who are unruly, immoral, covetous, swindlers, idolaters etc. Do you see these passages referring to the last step of church discipline or something else? You know I think basically they would have to be referring to the last step. Now sometimes you cut through immediately, the sin is at such a level the person acknowledges it. We’re at that step you don’t need two or three witnesses in that sense. Somebody confronts me, yes I’m guilty I have committed that sin. It’s not like you need the witnesses. If that person is stubborn and says no, I’m not going to stop and we’ve had that where a person confronted, they said no. Part of the two witnesses is to confirm it and to bring the weight on him that’s where it seems the Lord is patient and gives the three steps of the process.

We want to do all we can, and maybe when I talk to them alone, it doesn’t impact them but you know, two or three Christians sitting down with them, and like I said, we’ve had cases where people have come in perhaps the week when it comes down the elders have talked to them, they’re still waiting but now they know Sunday I’m going to announce to the congregation that so and so has not responded and they persist in their sin. Well, they’ve come in and said you know I want to deal with that, so each of these can be used of the Lord but the disappointing thing is, sometimes they still won’t and then you have to go to the final step, so yeah I see those things. We want them to stop the sin, once they’ve stopped the sin and acknowledged it, they’re forgiven.

I like John Owen, he says you be careful. John Owen, the Puritan I referred to, it is a more grievous sin to discipline somebody God has forgiven and should be accepted than it is to fail to discipline someone. He says you don’t want to fail in your response either way, but what do they say, if they tell me it was sin, I’m guilty, I repent before the Lord. I want to get my life right--that’s not good enough for me. I’ll see how you do over the next year and then maybe we’ll accept you. Who am I so that’s the kind of thing, so any of these passages. It’s in Romans 16, 1 Corinthians 5 and a number of them that tells those you break off with, I take it it’s those who are going to persist in the sin, won’t stop it.

If their doctrine is false, they’re denying the clear teaching of the word of God in an area, you know they’re denying that salvation is by grace alone and we talk to them, and no, no, no. Well then, you can no longer be involved here something like that it’s doctrinal, or it’s moral. Yeah, so I think that were not in a rush, let’s get them out, and once they’ve repented, once they acknowledge, now I don’t know their heart. I have sometimes, quite frankly, in the elder’s discussion, as they’ve meant with people and talked and we have to decide do we proceed and they’ve said no, but you know sometimes you think, well you know, I think they’re just doing it to avoid the discipline. If they say they’ve repented, we won’t follow through and really, what they’re looking to do is to build some time so they can leave the church.

Then once they’ve left they say, they write a letter and say, I am no longer a member at Indian Hills, well then you can’t discipline them. Legally you can’t because the law says they have to have a way to leave your church, and since you didn’t discipline—they’re a member now they have decided they’re not a member you can’t decide to discipline them, so you know that goes on. You know there may be people that are not sincere in their repentance. I can’t see a heart. Quite frankly there are people that when we’ve talked about it I’ve gone away and said you know, we’re not going to discipline them because we have to be biblical. In my heart, I really doubt whether they were sincere, and they end up being great and they demonstrate with their life, other people seem like they’re weeping and boy they seem so sincere and I guess they weren’t. So you know there is that subjectivity, but when a person indicates to us, comes and says I want to acknowledge, I’ve been in sin, it is sin; I want to stop it, I want to get right with the Lord. We don’t say, well you know now it takes this amount of time. God says you forgive him, that means it’s done.

Now there may be consequences. You may not be able to be a Sunday school teacher for a while. There may be consequences, but it’s not like you were a second, you’ve got to bear, you know, like the big A, that person will always be a second class citizen. That’s true when a person is disciplined. We have people that have come back that have said I want the discipline lifted, I was in sin, so then you know, we all sin in many ways, we have to be careful that we don’t begin to see someone from this church that says, but I never sinned like that. Oh really! It sounds a little bit like the Pharisees doesn’t it? I’m not a sinner like other people, that’s part of what can happen and we’re all guilty. I’ve been a believer so long, well I never was a sinner like that. If I never indulge in some of those, my heart was still the same before the Lord, because the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked above all things, and I begin to think well I wasn’t as bad a sinner as them.

It’s my problem with the Lord so we want to be sure. That’s why Christ emphasizes, so strongly, forgiveness. We go through the steps of discipline and then He spends all the time, a much more expansive time talking about the seriousness, if you don’t forgive them God won’t forgive you. That means you’re going to hell. That’s why John MacArthur says, I believe, I’m quoting him accurately that “the outstanding mark of a believer is forgiveness.” We say its love, but when you really love a person, you forgive them, right? You forgive those you love, so forgiveness is, “forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us.”

You know if you’re not forgiving, Jesus said you’d better read the end of Matthew. I mean people say in letters, I’ve got several, “I don’t agree with your view of repentance and forgiveness.” I’ve got a three-page letter I sent on that to someone. What do you mean you don’t agree with my view? You don’t have to agree with my view, but you’d better agree with God’s view. Now point out to me where this is not what God says? We’re forgiven. Forgiven, I can rejoice, you’re forgiven. Let me give you a hug. We want to hold them off. Well I don’t think he’s suffered enough. I’m going to have to be more sure.

I can’t take God’s role. I’m not the Holy Spirit so all I have to be sure, and we want to be sure as a church we do what God says. They’ve repented. Praise the Lord, that’s what we wanted! If they want to stop the sin, they want to get right with the Lord now we want to do everything we can to encourage them, help them, build them up, and get them on the right road. I don’t know, it seems to me they’re getting off too easy. Well I don’t want the Lord to deal with me that way so a little bit, this whole area, and all of this comes to the elders. The elders have to sort through and be careful that we’re handing what’s biblical.

Let me close, let me just say, many years ago we were sued over a church discipline case and it went to court, and before it goes to court you go through all the depositions and it was very helpful, not pleasant but helpful, because you know what the opposing attorneys had done. They had listened to all the tapes I had done on discipline (or those who work in their offices.) They had read all the material, they had worked through the Bibles that we had given them, then when we got there you know what the issue was. We were on solid ground as long as we could show we did exactly what the Scriptures said we were to do. You know what they constantly did? They also subpoenaed all of our elders minutes from the beginning of the church, and you have to turn them over and they read through those to see where maybe there were inconsistencies. Pastor Rugh, we see here on this occasion I didn’t see a vote of the elders. I think maybe sometimes you just have your opinion and you just say this is what the elders decide. You know everybody looking but as long as we could say no, here’s what the Scripture says, this is what we did, here’s how we handled it. That’s why we don’t make exceptions in this case and that--that’s why I say we just handle it biblically that’s what were supposed to do, and that way if we ever have to go to court again, all we can say is, the bible requires it. This is what we do.

This is why we handle it, why we don’t say, well in this case that’s why we don’t treat elders differently.

I thought that kind of pressure’s good because we have to give an account someday to our Judge and that’s why I say I look at it and say what did I tell you to do? He repents, you forgive. I can’t insert in there, but I didn’t think their repentance was—now just show me where in My word I told you to be sure the repentance was genuine. That’s God’s responsibility, right? On the day of Pentecost, 3,000 people stepped forward to get baptized, because they responded in the sermon. Well did they say let’s wait six months, a year; some of these Jews may change their mind. No, God looks at the heart and we submit to the word. Let’s pray together.

Thank You Lord for the riches of Your word. Lord, we are constantly growing; we are imperfect people. We are beset by sin. Lord we stumble many times in many ways and it is only Your grace that sustains us that keeps us, and Lord how amazing it is that You don’t hold it against us. How sad it is that we don’t show that same kind of love. May our church be known not just for its justice, but for its love, its care, that we are always concerned that each one of Your little ones is cared for, restored, that we might honor You in Christ’s name. Amen.