Questions and Answers, Part 12

Transcript

GRM 1208
12/02/2018
Question and Answer, Part 12
Selected Verses
Gil Rugh

I thought tonight we’d primarily focus on questions you might have. This will be the last night we’ll be doing this until we get into January, with the special things coming up with the holidays and some evenings around Christmas and the New Year where we won’t have a Sunday evening service. So I thought maybe if you have some questions and things you’d like to cover this would be a time that we could do it. I have a couple of things here, but let me start with you.

“Well, I thought since I had a question last week, I have one today too. Thinking of the ministry of the Holy Spirit, like in the church age, the Holy Spirit draws us to Himself and indwells us at the point of salvation. How different will the ministry of the Holy Spirit be, like in a tribulation period? And also the millennium, and then for eternity?”

Very good question. And I had a question that came in some time ago about the Holy Spirit. It was suggested there, maybe we do a study on the Holy Spirit. As I mentioned this morning just briefly, the focus of scripture is much more on God the Father and God the Son. That is not to diminish the importance of the Holy Spirit because I think clearly the scripture indicates He’s fully God. But we don’t get as much revelation concerning Him as we do on the Father and the Son. Now, this day with the Holy Spirit indwelling us, we’re reminded, our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit and so on. We get into the future and some of those things, it becomes a little less clear. The Old Testament as well, there’s not as much emphasis on the Holy Spirit, although we know He’s at work. In the very beginning with the creation, with Genesis, the Spirit of God hovered over the face of the deep. So He’s there, present, actively involved in the creation. But not specifically developed. And then we know Old Testament prophets were inspired by God. The kings had the Holy Spirit come upon them to enable them to be king. Remember, the Holy Spirit departed from Saul? David prayed, take not Your Spirit from me. The Spirit came on men for specific ministries, to enable them, gifted them, men in tabernacle ministries and so on. But, the actual development of it now, as we move into the tribulation, how will the Spirit’s ministry be different? We know there will be salvation in the world. He will obviously be active in that. How will His indwelling presence will be? I assume that will take place since Christ’s coming has made the provision of the Holy Spirit. So, I would assume that would carry over. We go into to the Kingdom at the end of the millennium. The new covenant ministry of the Holy Spirit, provided by Christ, involves putting the Spirit within. Jeremiah 31, Ezekiel 36, then the Holy Spirit coming within the heart. So, it would seem that would be a ministry, of course, that would go on into the kingdom. Because that’s part of the fulfillment of the new covenant.

When you get into the eternal aspect, there’s not much said about how He will function in relationship to the individuals. When we get our glorified body we’ll dwell in the presence of God. But even there the specific way the Spirit ministers with us? Perhaps He continues on in the life of every believer, we’re just not told, so we have the Spirit of God personally within us. And we are personally in the presence of God, but we almost end up in speculating beyond what we really have anymore detailed revelation on. The Spirit of God is active and will always be active. But it’s even like we see in the book of Revelation. We noted the Spirit of God represented by the seven eyes of God and so on, in connection with the throne. But any focus on Him is much more minimal compared to what is said about God the Father and God the Son, and that’s true as we move on into the future. So, all that to say, I guess I couldn’t say very much specifically, except the new covenant ministry of the Spirit and Him being within. I would think that was going to be true, particularly of regenerated people who haven’t been glorified.

Now, I have to say, on the other side, just as I take it, beyond Revelation. Seems strange to me that when I get my glorified body, the Spirit will move out of me. It seems like He would be most comfortable in me, if I can use that word, in my perfected state. I hear He dwells in me now in my unperfected state. But it doesn’t clearly say. It will be His power that brings it about, because it’s His regenerating power that brings about the new birth. It’s an interesting study and maybe sometime…I know in some of the classes you’ve probably dealt with it. Someone like Leon Wood wrote a book on the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament. Leon Wood was dispensational also. So that’s an interesting study to see something of His ministry in the Old Testament. We’re mostly familiar and focus our attention on His ministry in the church. He had a clear, strong ministry through the Old Testament. But then moving out, sort of like some of our other questions, when we move beyond particularly the millennial phase into eternity we just get a brief glimpse overall.

Anybody else have something you would like to ask? Perhaps related to that, I could throw in a question, I can’t remember if I answered this or not. But sometimes when I sit at my desk and work out an answer, then time goes by. If I don’t mark it on my sheet, or Jeff doesn’t mark it for me, I can’t remember if I really answered it, or if I just answered it to myself, sitting at my desk. Part of that could be age.

“Since we do not base the model of the church on the gospels, why do we base the model of church discipline on Matthew 18?”

That reminds me of it with the Spirit, because the Spirit works and directs. It’s true, we need to be careful about building doctrine in the Gospels. Some of us were talking about narrative theology. Narrative theology has become popular in more recent times. Narrative theology is the idea that you build your theology and doctrine on the narrative, the story portions of the bible. So, particularly the Old Testament and the Gospels and the book of Acts. And the difficulty with that is, you take what was the experience of people at a certain time, and then you try to build the theology, that’s what we can do. For example, the disciples could go out and heal the sick and cast out demons. When Christ, remember, sent the 70 out. We want to be careful about building a theology and say God’s plan now for us as believers is to go out, heal the sick, and cast out demons. In that, there is that time period and then certain things were unique. You read the history of the Old Testament, certain things going on, it doesn’t mean that we can do those things. But in the Gospels and the Old Testament as well, there are certain things that are applicable to us.

In Matthew 18 is where the details of what we follow as steps of church discipline are laid out. A couple of things: One, you’ve studied Matthew and you know at chapter 12 there is a change in Jesus’s ministry. From offering the kingdom to the nation and calling Israel to salvation through faith in the Messiah. Now in chapter 13, remember, He starts talking in parables. Remember, the parables weren’t to enlighten the nation, it was to hide information from them. The curtain is descending, judgement is falling, the rejection of the Messiah, now is being accepted as Israel’s final word. It doesn’t mean there’s not offers of salvation that continue, but the offer of the King and the Kingdom to Israel is being closed. So you’ll see a change in Matthew 13, with the parables of the kingdom as we talk about them. The disciples ask, why do You talk to them in parables? Well, to you it’s been given to know this revelation from God, but for them, no. This is not to be revelation to them, this is judgement on them. The blinding of their minds, the hardening of their hearts as a result.
All that to say, when we get to Matthew 18, we’re in that dimension of moving forward. Christ is now on His way to the cross at Jerusalem, and so on. So, some of that would indicate what their conduct is to be. And that would carry us, in some ways, to what will happen after He’s gone. Remember in Matthew 16 when Jesus said that He was going to the cross, Peter rebukes Him. We’re still thinking about the kingdom. But, as Christ reveals, I’m going to be crucified at Jerusalem not to be installed as king. So, in Matthew 18, the principles there could have been applied even before the church. But really, the church is the next step in the plan of God, with the rejection of the Messiah by Israel and the judgement of God. So, I think what is set down there is simply a reminder, God’s children are precious to Him.

Why don’t you turn to Matthew 18, we’ve talked about it a number of times. I want to compare it to a passage in the Epistle that is directly related to the church, and you see it’s the same truth. So, if the truth would be true of all God’s children, and through the Old Testament, God’s children were precious to Him. He wanted them to be brought into right relationship with Him. When they got out of fellowship how often did God call Israel back. Calling them back, He doesn’t write them off, so to speak. And He hasn’t today. He’s not done with Israel, even when He puts them under a disciplining judgement. In Chapter 18:14, when He says, “This is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.” So when one of the sheep wander, God’s intention is that they be brought back. So, with that, verse 15 picks up, “If your brother sins.” Because that’s the one that’s gone astray. You have 99 sheep that haven’t gone astray, but one has. That one that has, you don’t write them off just because you have 99 that haven’t. So, the preciousness of God’s children. That principle is true, whether for Israel or the church.

So, how do you go about restoring a wandering child of God? Even before the church, the disciples have to understand this and how they could function with others. But I think we’ll be looking more forward. And so you have the steps to follow and then the principles of forgiveness. This kind of attitude and action would be true more broadly, just proof for God’s people, those who have been forgiven by God. Remember earlier in the Lord’s prayer, forgive us our trespasses as we have forgiven those who trespassed against us. Forgive us our sins, Lord. And the manifestation of the genuineness, we realize our guilt and forgiveness. And so, we forgive others. It’s hypocritical for me not to forgive you when you sin against me, but then I turn around and seek the forgiveness that God gives me. So, the truth is there, that’s where Peter’s question comes in. It’s not like Peter is saying, I’m not sure what you’re talking about. I understand this principle of forgiving a fellow believer. In Israel, a fellow Jew kind of situation.

So, that principle, when you come over to 1 Timothy 5. Paul, in giving instruction regarding the church, basically just repeats the same thing in 1 Timothy 5. And here he’s talking in the context of elders, but the steps followed are the same. That you need two or three witnesses, that’s where we went. It’s a little more elaborated in Matthew 18, but you go as an individual, then you take witnesses with you. Same procedure followed here. Whatever the position of the person, it doesn’t change. And if they won’t stop sinning, you rebuke them in the presence of all. And so the same thing in Matthew 18. Those who won’t respond to the exhortation to turn from their sin and get back in right relationship with God, then they are publicly admonished. In Matthew, tell it to the church. Again, the church hadn’t been established but it was referred to as the church in Matthew 16. And probably in the eyes of the disciples, they didn’t know about the church, but the assembly that would be gathered for sure. So, the same principle is carried out in 1 Timothy 5, there’s not a change. And you see it’s the same for all of God’s children. You don’t get different treatment if you’re an elder, as 1 Timothy 5, with the establishing of elders. The principle would be true among the Jews as well, when Christ gave it. And the principle of forgiveness is the same. And we have that illustrated, as Christ has forgiven us, we forgive others. We see those things, certain truths are true of all of God’s people, wherever it is.
I realize sometimes, I think the older dispensations made too sharp a distinction between like, the Sermon on the Mount, which is simply describing the character of true believers. So, the character of the true believer, whether it was in Israel or whether it’s in the church today is, we recognize we’ve been forgiven by the grace of God and we manifest that forgiveness to others. So, when Jesus instructs His Jewish disciples how to pray, forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; as Paul instructs the church, as you have been forgiven in Christ, you forgive others, these truths are the same. What it is, is God’s character being manifest in those who belong to Him. So, the process of our goal is to be God’s goal. Like one of your children who sin, rebel, you just don’t say, you’re out of the family, gone, good riddance. Your desire is to do all you can to bring them back, that’s the procedure. Now we’re talking about God’s family, and by His grace we’re thankful that He just doesn’t throw us out of the family. But what we do, here as part of His family, we become instruments to bring that wandering sheep back. So, I think there are things that are applicable from the Gospels. But I think we need to be careful, there are things that are unique to the Gospels. The King was present, they were offering the kingdom. They were doing miracles demonstrating the presence of the Messiah who would be a miracle-working Messiah, healing the sick and so on. Well, some of those things are more limited and not necessarily for us today.

“I just had a question about creation. I mean everything we see today, as far as the heavens and the planets and earth and people and plants and animals, are all accounted for in creation. My question is, when were the angels actually created?”

Where were the angels? Oh, when were the angels created?

“Before creation, during, or after?”

Yes, it seems to me, and I didn’t originate this, John Whitcomb, among others, one of my professors, it seems it fits, they were created on the first day of creation. An indication, Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, those two passages that deal with Lucifer and his fall. We’re told that he walked in the garden of Eden in glory. So it would seem he was present then. The angels were created as ministering servants of the heirs of salvation. According to Hebrews, that would seem to indicate that their creation would have occurred in the context of creating the people who would become the heirs of salvation. We note, the angels were in existence when we get to Genesis 3, because Satan appears as Satan. They are created beings, so I think it fits that they would have been created perhaps on the first day of creation. And sometime in there, then, the rebellion of the angels took place. I’m not convinced of what is called the Gap Theory. Some hold, and the old Scofield Bible had the note that helped popularize it, that between the first and second verses of Genesis 1 the fall occurred. Because in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was formless and void. Some would translate it, the earth became formless and void, and they connect that to a passage in Jeremiah where a similar thing is said about the earth in connection with God’s judgement. But I’m not convinced of the support for that. It doesn’t seem that judgement comes into the world until chapter 3 of Genesis. So, it’s not that the world God had created had become corrupted by the fall of Satan. All that to say, it seems the only place we could put it would be in the, maybe the first day of creation, as part of the beginning of creation. He created the spirit world that would function in connection with the world He was about to create. Because God didn’t need the angels, they’re not eternal, and we will rule over the angels according to 1 Corinthians 6. So,
all of that to say, I think, that’s the most probable explanation, and I have to put it that way, because the scripture never says. But I think it’s Ezekiel 28 that says, regarding Satan before the fall, you were in Eden, the garden of God, and then describes something of the beauty that he had. Somewhere in there, the fall occurred. It might have been rather quickly after his fall, we assume it would have been, that he immediately moved to lead Adam and Eve into sin in an attempt to assert his authority over the creation. And man was, remember, created to rule over the creation as God’s representative, but he forfeited that when he followed Satan in the rebellion. So, now fallen people are what? Slaves of the Devil, who is the god (small g) of this world. I don’t think that’s rectified. Well, get off the sidetrack, but I don’t think we’ll have that restored until Christ rules again, the second Adam. So, Adam and Eve were created to rule over the rest of creation, but that will not, the ultimate realization of that won’t be until we have the kingdom established under the authority of Christ, the second Adam, and the real finality of that will not come until the end of the millennium, when all rebellion is removed from the creation. With all rebels in hell, angelic as well as human and then we’re back to the direct rule of God. The indirect rule through Christ, if you will, mediating God’s rule on earth in the millennium is the first phase of that, but the final phase where there is no sin in that creation will be after the millennium.

Gil, do you have any recommendations for daily personal devotion study? Methods, books or devotional materials?

Yes and No, I think we’re all a little different and like to do it differently. I think one of the good ways is to have a pattern of reading just the scriptures. That’s where we want to start, like we’re preparing a reading through the bible. There are many of those, but we thought it would be nice to have one for us as a church, then we’d all be following that together. So, you know, you know where everybody else is, at least that portion of their study. So, you can start your day or end your day however that works for you reading. So, that would be where I’d start. Just say, you know, have some time where you set aside to work through the scripture. And I think things like the little devotional guide that we make available. Some of you use the Charles Spurgeon’s Morning and Evening from his work. And it’s profitable to read, I was reading another writer from the early 1800’s and he had a similar kind of thing, devotional for every day. And there some things they draw your attention to that. So, I don’t have a specific pattern or something I would say is good for everyone. I think, you know, you consider what works for me and then your time of prayer and how you carry that out. I recommend, you know, use the newsletter, guiding for praying particularly for the ministry we share together. Because that is a way we are involved with one another, we are to pray for one another. And when we do, God uses our prayers to work in the lives of others and the ministry they have and thus, we become part of one another’s lives and ministry.

It’s a good idea to set some kind of pattern, whether you’re an early morning person who gets up at 4:00 in the morning and has your devotions and that gets your day rumbling. Or you’re a person who says, I do it later at night before I go to bed and maybe you do it both. So, if you’d like a guide, you can stop at Sound Words and they can share with you, because there are a number of them. And try different ones. You might use Spurgeon’s Morning and Evening for a year. He’s ah older writer, but he’ll have good insights. You might take the little booklet we have, put it with your bible and use that. Sometimes those things are helpful for clearing our mind and focusing our attention. But in all of it, be careful, I want to be reading the word of God because that’s God’s direct communication to me. So, that would be foundational to whatever I do, being in the word. That’s more general than specific I guess.

Yes, Pastor Gil, today reading Revelation 22:4, it says, they will see His face and His name will be on their foreheads. See His face, is this the face of Christ during His incarnate 33 years? Is this a different face or is this just a figure of speech?

Well, for sure, it means we will be in His very presence. But I think that from passages like Daniel, where Daniel saw God the Father on the throne, and God the Son coming before God the Father. And then again in the book of Revelation where they do see God, I think there’s reason to believe that there will be a visible manifestation of God’s presence. And that’s why I’d say that when Moses is told, no man can see my face and live, because in our present condition we are not able to do that and we’re not yet perfected. But we do see, some manifestation of God and there can be a description. You know, the flowing hair, and the glowing, so it won’t be just like a cloud like He manifested His presence in the Old Testament. I think both the Father and the Son are there, they are seated on the throne, which is something specific there. Again, we want to be careful, God is omnipresent, He’s not limited to where He’s manifesting His presence. But it does seem like heaven, heaven is the place where God most fully manifests His presence before His creation. Before He created anything else, God didn’t need, if I can say it that way, it was Father, Son and Holy Spirit, they existed eternally in permanent fellowship and whatever activity. But with the creation, heaven where God’s presence is manifested, the angels serve around His throne. So, I would have no problem with that being a direct reference, not just talking about the intimacy of being in His presence but seeing Him on His throne. And it’s Christ and the Father on the throne. Indicate, they don’t have to share the same chair, but the point is, They are there, joint in this ruling and somehow there is place associated with that and manifestation of person. So, I don’t know what it would be like to look into the face of God, but at least before that, if Daniel could see Him and describe His hair and God chooses to manifest Himself. When He manifests Himself, it seems He manifests Himself like us. We want to be careful, we don’t want to make God in our image, but we are made in the image of God. And the manifestations of God we have, beyond just a cloud or something like that, that indicates He’s present, are in ways that would connect to us. A man with a head and hair, ways He seems to choses to manifest Himself among His creation when it’s most fully manifested. And when God was going to become man, all the fulness of deity dwelt in Him in bodily form. Now, that’s the only one person of the godhead who will be manifested that way. And His human body is a permanent body. So, that will be the way. But Christ is not confined to the body, even though all the fulness of deity dwells in that body. As God, He has to be omnipresent. So, while we talk about God resides in heaven, God is also present here. Like the Psalmist said, if I descend to the depth of Sheol, You’re there, no matter where I go, You are there. And yet, He manifests His presence in a specific way, and for that, I think He may allow us to see more of the fulness of the manifestation of His presence than has ever been done before. I would expect that, I don’t think it would have to be limited just to Christ. But it’s one of those things, I don’t know that I’d go to the wall for that. But I might watch somebody go to the wall for that. You know, what God has prepared for those that love Him, it’s not, we’ve got to be careful, Eye has not seen nor ear heard, nor entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him, but it doesn’t stop there. But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit. So, it’s not like, oh well, we can never know this until we get there. The point is, you wouldn’t find out about God by natural means. But God has revealed Himself to believers through the Spirit. And so those who have the Spirit of God, can know the God who can only be known by revelation. That’s in Paul’s letter to the Corinthians. 1 Corinthians 2. So, sometimes you hear that quoted and we just quote the one verse, Eye has not seen nor ear heard, so, we’ll just have to wait to get to heaven. No, the point is, you don’t find out about God by natural means, but by supernatural means. The means is the Spirit of God with the revelation God gives, so those who have the Spirit, have the mind of God, they know God, but the soulish man, the man without the Spirit, can’t know, truly know God. So, we do know, but there’s so much more beyond what we can know in our present condition, and with the limited amount of revelation we have. It’s plenty, because it’s all God intends us to know, but to Deuteronomy 29, the revealed things belong to us, the secret things belong to God. But, we want to know everything He has revealed as thoroughly as we can.

Back here, Was hell made before or after the fall?

I would say, made after the fall of Satan, because hell was made for the Devil and His angels, according to Matthew 25. So, that would indicate with the fall of Satan and the angels that followed Him, hell was created as their eternal destiny, because there would be no salvation provided for the angels. That was God’s plan to have, you know, a much fuller creation and so on. The fall would come into humanity, but when humans are sentenced to hell, it’s to the hell that was prepared for the Devil and His angels, and you are a follower of the Devil, so you will follow Him into the hell prepared for Him.

I take it, it would have been created after the fall of Satan and the angels as the place for their eternal destiny. And then when Satan lured Adam and Eve, the wages of sin is death. And that includes physical death, spiritual death and eternal death. So, they would follow Him in that destiny. That’s why the importance of a redeemer, yeah.

Hey Gil, in our glorified state, will we not have a will, but the Holy Spirit would be our conscience?

Ok, the will, we will have a will, but it will be a perfected will, so we will never desire to do anything contrary to the will of God. And I take it, that will be true, not only of us in glorified bodies, but for those who move from the millennium and the first phase of the eternal kingdom, move out where there will be no sin. Then they will have perfected wills. And that’s where, important to keep the distinction between Adam and Eve, but we’ll talk about Adam, since he’s the head of the race, we are not exactly like Adam. Adam was perfect as God created him, as Lucifer was. God says regarding Lucifer, remember you were perfect from the day you were created, until iniquity was found in you. Adam and Eve were created perfect, sinless. But Adam was what we call, untried holiness. He would be put to a test. Satan would be allowed, obviously God could have closed Satan out of the Garden of Eden, but He didn’t. And so, when Adam chose to follow Satan in His rebellion and God’s plan for the angels to have that choice, and for man to have that choice. Then he became a fallen being. But with the redemption of Christ, we are now confirmed in holiness. That’s why we can talk about our eternal security, because God has credited me with His righteousness, His own righteousness, God’s righteousness. We have the righteousness of God, through faith in Christ. Now, He tells us to be holy as He is holy. But because the sin nature has not yet been totally irradicated, there are times of resistance and rebellion. But never to the extent that I could become so sinful that I could not belong to God anymore. I can’t revert to what I was. So, I would say that there will come a time, in our glorified bodies, sin is obviously no longer present. It’s like the angel who didn’t follow Lucifer in the rebellion. They were confirmed in their holiness. What the angels of sin did, is they lost their holiness, their righteousness. Lucifer no longer sinless as God created Him. But now, with the redemption of Christ, we have a confirmed holiness. And I think that happens, that will obviously happen to believers in their physical bodies, they, I don’t think there’s any indication that they would have their sin nature yet irradicated, because there is going to be sinful people. There will be a mixture in the millennium, just like there is today. What is missing is Satan. But the sin nature is not missing. That’s why babies born in the millennium will have to come to believe the gospel and be saved. What is there? Satan’s influence is gone, as we talked about. That’s part of the purpose of that first thousand years, to reveal that mankind’s problem is not the Devil. That doesn’t mean He doesn’t contribute to the problem. But I sin, not because the Devil makes me sin. Now, sometimes the Devil works with my old man, as the scripture calls it, my fallen sinful nature, and I exercise my will to want to sin. And He can work like He worked with Eve, look at the tree, its something desirable and attractive. 1 John talks about the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life. Why do I ever sin? I don’t have to sin. And as a believer, I don’t even want to at heart. And when I do sin, it doesn’t make me happy. There may be a certain satisfaction and pleasure that comes with sin, or we wouldn’t do it. But, you know, a believer, that’s contrary to now what I am. I’m a partaker of the divine nature. Why did I do that? Why did I say that? You know, it’s different, but I take it then, that there will come a time when the sin nature is irradicated. That is important. Sin is not eternal. Sin is not part of the original creation of God. Sin is an action of the created against the Creator. Satan wasn’t created as a sinful being. He was perfect from the day He was created, until iniquity was found in Him. And so, the same with Adam and Eve. Until there was nothing, he’d eaten from the tree of life, he would have been confirmed in his holiness and lived forever as a perfect human being, sinless. Remember, I keep repeating myself, I just want you to know, I know I’m repeating, it’s not just age. That’s why he couldn’t be left in the Garden, he might eat of the tree of life, as a fallen being and he would have been confirmed in his sinfulness and his lostness. But God intended to provide a redeemer. The fallen angels were confirmed in their lostness immediately because God had no plan to provide a redeemer for angels. Hebrews 2, Christ did not become an angel, there is no salvation for fallen angels. God doesn’t have to redeem sinful beings.

So, with us, I take it at the end of the millennium, when sin is finally delt with, irradicated, the sin nature will be irradicated from those who are in physical bodies. Because they are already confirmed in holiness by the virtue of the fact that they are believers. But the sin nature has not been finally removed. Just like for us, we’ve received a new nature, but the old nature is not yet gone. It will be gone when we get glorified bodies. God will remove it at the end of the millennium, so they’ll be perfected. Just like if Adam and Eve had eaten of the tree of life and gone on to experience the fullness of what God prepared. So, that’s why I think the eternal phase of the kingdom, after the thousand years, there’s no sin there. That’s why the people outside the New Jerusalem, because that’s not all there is, the New Jerusalem comes down on the new earth. So, it’s not everybody just lives in the New Jerusalem. We’ve talked about this but sometimes things get confusing. There is the new earth, the New Jerusalem is the capital of the new earth. Which would mean, there could be, just like there’s nations, I take the land of Israel will be outside like it is outside Jerusalem. Jerusalem is not all there is to Israel and their land, and the land promised to them. Jerusalem is the capitol of Israel and will be the capitol of the world. It will be in the millennium. But in the new heavens and the new earth, because the new Jerusalem doesn’t come down to be the final realization of what was just pictured as we talked about again this morning. And the tabernacle and Solomon’s temple and the millennial temple, now the reality, as Hebrews says, where Christ went, and His priesthood is carried out in the reality, heaven. Whereas all earthly priestly activity has been carried out on what was just a shadow, a preview, Hebrews developed. What we have is so, now, clearly defined for us. We have to be careful, sin is not eternal. Otherwise, the Devil won.

You know, I used the example, let’s talk about, like cancer. There’s a difference between, well I have cancer in my body, but it is confined. That’s different than saying, there is no cancer, no trace, it is totally gone. And there’s a difference. You go to the doctor and you have cancer, he says, well we can’t cure it but we can confine it. And you may live quite a long time and it may never kill you. Well, I like it a lot better when he says it’s gone, there’s not a trace. That’s what happens with sin. Otherwise, the Devil wins. You can’t get sin out of the creation. That was His whole intention, to inject sin into the creation so you can’t have people living forever as sinful beings. Well, the Devil is in hell, but He still won because you can’t get rid of the sin that He was involved in bringing about with enticing Eve and having Adam exercise his will in rebellion. You have to do away with sin. And the book of Revelation says it’s delt with finally after the millennium. That would mean the people, so those nations coming up to Jerusalem are sinless. They are believers. And there will be children, multiply out. So, I think that’s the pattern.

So, all that to say, the difference between those at that stage and Adam, we keep talking about, we’ll go back to like it was in Eden. But not completely like it’s Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, because it’s better. Because they weren’t confirmed in their holiness. But we are. I take it you believe that, otherwise you lose your salvation. For years, early in my Christian life, I was part of a group that believed you could lose your salvation. That’s not a nice place to live. One time I went to church, went up to the alter to get resaved, reforgiven. Lord, forgive me one more time. I will never do that again. Lie! Because I did it again. Well, does that mean, how many times, how much sin do I have to have until I’m lost again? And these dear people thought, well they never got to that point. But I believe I am confirmed in the holiness and righteousness of God, provided for me in the death and resurrection of Christ. And some day, I will be perfected in this body. And I take it that will be true for people who go on in their physical bodies. God will remove the sin nature. What’s the problem? Gone! That’s why the New Jerusalem is the final chapter. And the people outside the city, come into the city. Why don’t they live in the city? Because they are in physical bodies. The New Jerusalem is the dwelling place, and we looked at Hebrews 12, of resurrected, glorified beings or spirit beings who never sinned. Fallen angels, the church, Old Testament saints, God resides there, so that’s the temple of the earth. Remember, you don’t need any other temple because the New Jerusalem is the temple, because that’s where God resides. And that’s what the temple always was. Starting with the tabernacle, this is where God manifested His presence. The temple, this is where God manifests His presence. The millennial temple, Christ will reside in the New Jerusalem. God manifests His presence.

Now, the full manifestation, God manifesting in heaven. Here He comes, now it’s down on earth. That’s the capitol of the earth, that’s the worship center of the earth, that’s the contrast, remember of Babylon, the harlot city, which Satan wanted to make the capitol of the earth and the center of worship of Him, the New Jerusalem. I may just start over the book of Revelation and do it again.

No, don’t leave, but boy, you know it’s wonderful what God’s laid out. We ought to start at the end now and work backwards. But that wouldn’t be as much fun.

Gil, I have a question for you. So, I was having a discussion with my son the other day and we were talking about Roman Gods and some fictional stuff. And being the good father, I wanted to direct him back to the bible and get all spiritual with him. And then all of a sudden, conversation gets hairy, and I can’t answer his questions. So, it’s something like this, and I’m not even sure this is a good question. But we were talking about the difference between eternal and immortal. So, in Greek mythology you have immortals, that means they live forever but they will die. So, you know, contrasting Adam and Eve in the beginning and then the eternal state that we are in. I was thinking about, what’s the difference between the two. So, Adam and Eve in the garden, would you define them as being immortal, like they could die if some accident happened, but they would live forever because their bodies would never age or die? Are you following me?

Yes, the trouble with these kids, shouldn’t let them ask us questions, cause they ask the hard ones. Because they don’t know, you don’t ask that question, cause I can’t answer it. So, go do your home work. Ha, Ha. But I think there is a distinction and maybe immortal is a good way to put it. They did use that of the gods, because their gods were different. God, the living God, is you know sometimes we refer to Him as the eternal, immortal God. Eternity can be used in the context, no beginning and no ending. Whereas immortal may mean not subject to death and so even though we have a beginning, we’ll never have an ending. And in that sense all human beings are immortal, as all angels are. Because God breathed in the the breath of life, so the life came from Him and it will never end. So, the angels that were created will spend eternity, the rest of eternity, they had a beginning, but they have no ending. We talk about God dwells in eternity because He had no beginning and no ending. When we talk about maybe, everlasting life, it’s the life we have will last forever. In that sense its not eternal because we had a beginning. So, that distinction I think is valid. And sometimes we use the language overlapping. Adam and Eve would have lived forever. They weren’t created to die, the were created to live. Similar, and maybe we can jump to the angels. All the angels will live forever and in that sense are immortal. They’ll never die. They experience a kind of death. So, the death we’re talking about, they’ll never cease to exist. And that’s where the description of death is important. Sometimes I talk, you know what death is, death is separation. Death is not the end of existence, because what happens? The body without the spirit is dead. So, when this body dies, what has happened is, the immaterial part of man has left the body. And you can use like, Luke 16 where the rich man lifts up his eyes and in hades. So, I think that distinction between immortal and everlasting has a basis in truth because we were created to never die. So, even the unbeliever is going to get a resurrected body, appear at the great white throne, and in that resurrected body that will never be subject to death, will be subject to eternal suffering and pain. We will get resurrected bodies, we call glorified that are suitable for living forever in the glory of God’s presence. I take it, Adam and Eve were suitable for God’s presence before they sinned. Remember, God came and walked with them in the garden. We had open, full fellowship, they communed. It’s hard for us to think, God is coming down, again must have been in some kind of concrete way, that indicates intimacy of fellowship. And they’re the ones that hide from God and have to be called to account.

So, I don’t know if that helps where you’re going.

It pretty much answers my question, but one less fine tuning maybe. Would you define Adam and Eve in the garden as being their bodies being indestructible? So, when you talk about angels, I view them as being indestructible. It’s not like you can kill them. In our new resurrected bodies, I kind of view it the same way. Can you say that Adam and Eve would have been, I know that’s speculation.

No, but I think that would have to be true. They’re bodies as created, did not have to die. It’s why God said, in the day you eat of the tree, you’ll surely die. Not only was it spiritual death, that separation from God that manifests itself when they hide from God. But also the process of physical death set in. Now, it’s going to take longer than it takes for us, but they won’t reach 1,000. So, the process of deterioration, it will get accelerated with the passing of time. But that didn’t have to set in, it wasn’t part of what God planned. So yes, they could have lived forever in a physical body. That’s why I think it’s consistent to say that at the end of the millennium when death is done with and all associated with it, no more death, no more tears no more. Yes, people in physical bodies can live forever, for this body doesn’t have to die of sin. The wages of sin is death and that includes physical death as well as spiritual death and eternal death which are all involved, a key element in all is separation.

So yes, I think their bodies could have lived forever. Doesn’t have to die. That’s the deterioration of sin. Just like God created the angels, they didn’t have to die or cease to exist from that point on. Our physical bodies, Adam could have lived forever. What did God say? Be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth. But if you eat of that tree, you will surely die. What if I don’t eat of that tree? Well, the wages of sin is death, you take away sin, you take away death. So yes, I think it would be correct to say their physical bodies would have lived forever. So, I don’t see an inconsistency at the other end. After the millennium, why not? Sin has been delt with. So, I think, yes that’s where I would see it. You know, and some of it, that’s what the book of Revelation helps the whole picture to fit together. And I’m going to have a few words with Adam when I get there. What did you do that for? But I’m a son of Adam. He’ll be able to say to me, what did you do it for? Well, it’s your fault. He’ll be able to say, no I tried that one on Eve and it didn’t work. I told God it was Eve’s fault. Eve had to bear her punishment. I had to bear my punishment. The Devil had to bear His punishment.

Gil, are you familiar with the recent bible translation, The Chirstian Standard Bible? If so, do you have any thoughts on it?

Yes, but I want to be sure I don’t have it, I’m not sure it that’s the Southern Babtist Translation, do you know? Anybody here checked on that? That’s what popped into my mind when you said The Christian Standard Bible. I haven’t personally used it or looked at it. There are so many translations out now. I’m not sure whether that’s one put out by Broadman and Holman. If it is, I think it would be a decent translation. But I can’t say for sure, now that say it, I want to be careful because there’s the Christian church which has a lot of materials that I would not be quite as comfortable with. But I think that may be right, you might check it on the internet. But, is that right? That’s the Broadman and Holman, Southern Baptist Christian Standard Bible?

Yes.

Ok, and I would think from the little bit that I know about it, that would be a reliable, trustworthy English Standard Version. They’ve moved to some of these to get away from like we used the American Standard or the New American Standard, they wanted to make it more universal. So, it’s just not tied to, this is only for people in this country. You know, anywhere there are English speaking people, they would use that, like the New International Version, you want to from. And some of these translations, like the Christian Standard, The English Standard, they’re pretty good translations. I don’t think any of them are more accurate than the New American Standard. And even if you read, look at comparisons of translations, that is viewed as the most literal, some of them are trying to strike more of a balance. Some say that the New American Standard is awkward because its too literal. I can understand that, you go from one language to another, it does become an issue. But I wouldn’t be uncomfortable with The English Standard. I have been through The English Standard for some time. I used it, because I had it on my material that I listen to when I did my exercise in the morning. But, I decided, why wear out my body with going nowhere, so I quit exercising. But I did go through The English Standard Version and found it fine. I’m getting to the place where I think I can’t just waste the energy I have. I’m not against exercising, but yes, I think The Christian Standard, I wouldn’t have a problem. I do like the idea of using the same translation. But I don’t make a point of it. But, we do get more in detail, and if someone is using a different translation, it becomes a little difficult, if I draw attention to a specific word, and it’s been translated a little differently, it can sometimes be hard to find it. So, that’s why we’ve encouraged, when I switched there wasn’t as many choices. I still find the New American Standard fine. And even those who recommend other translations as more readable they like, but if you’re doing serious study, the New American Standard is the most helpful. Well, what other kind of study of the bible is there? So, you know, I think, but if you use the Christian Standard Version or the English Standard Version, I think you’d be close enough to find it. You use the King James Version, which is primarily a literal translation, but there’s more variation because of manuscript issues.

You only get one question a night Harvey. Ha, Ha, Since it’s the last night, I have one more. Just last week, somebody was rebutting that life begins at conception. And I thought, boy the verse of scripture they were using, Genesis 2:7, said And the Lord formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living being. They were rebutting life begins at conception, it would be at a later time. And I thought, so wrong, I hope somebody can explain it to them.

Yes, I mean Adam is a direct creation of God. And as He did with other parts of creation, animals and so on, they could multiply after their kind. And for Adam and Eve, they’re instructed to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. So, I think there are a number of arguments, but one of the clearest is the scripture indicates, we’re descendants of Adam. And when the Psalmist writes, in sin did my mother conceive me, indicates the sin nature is passed along from parent to child. So, we are all producing little sinners who grow to be adult sinners. That’s the process. So, if you don’t have that, and this is an argument in church history called “traducianism”, was the soul directly created by God, every soul directly created by God? Or was it past on? I think it has to be passed on, otherwise our connection with Adam is broken at every conception. And then God does what? Create a sinful soul? I mean, Adam is viewed as the head of the race. In Adam, all sin. Well, where did I develop sin? I’m a sinner by birth and by choice. In sin did my mother conceive me, would be one verse that clearly indicates that. Not that conception is sin, but the sin of Adam is passed on to subsequent generations. So, I think that’s one of the indications that life is present from birth. Now the development of life and the whole issue of abortion gets involved a little more than that. But I think for the right side of the issue, it was settled over does God directly create a new soul every time? I think, you just can’t support that scripturally. That’s why the church really adopted the view that it’s passed on from Adam. Otherwise, you can’t have God creating a sinful being. So, you have every child being innocent until they become guilty of committing their own sinful rebellion or being rebellious against God. But I don’t think the children are innocent in that sense, they may not be held accountable for their sin, because all the judgements are of works. But I think the redemptive work of Christ has taken care of, so the indication of scripture, I think, is nobody is going to hell, I’m off on a side here, for the sin of Adam.

Remember, at the great white throne, the book of life is there, and the book of their works is there. So, its true, I’m born a sinner. I can’t say, well then its not my fault. Because I think the death of Christ, as the second Adam, takes care of the issue of original sin. So, we don’t go to hell just because we were born sinners. Because God says, I won’t hold the child responsible for the sin of the parent, or the parent for the sin of the child. But in our issue here, like in Ezekiel 18, I don’t bring judgement on the child for the sin of the parent. Everybody is accountable for themselves. That’s why the book of the works is there at the great white throne. It demonstrates you’re not just a sinner by birth and the death of Christ can take care of that as a second Adam. But in a sense, we all become our own personal guilty sinner. And even the person who never hears the gospel, the light of creation in Romans 1, shows him a rebellious sinner because he rejects the light that is given. Even though there may not be enough light to save him, there’s enough light to condemn him. Because if you reject a little bit of light that God gives, well that demonstrates where you are. You’re in rebellion against Him. You can’t say, well give me more light. No, you rejected the light you have. Now, greater light brings greater responsibility.

But, I think, you know, it was a battle in church history over that. So, I think God does not create a new soul with every person. Otherwise, Adam wouldn’t be the head of the race. He just was the first one created. But be fruitful and multiply, and that’s where we go, then in the generations, after we leave chapter 3, we get into chapter 4, then chapter 5 and culminating in the wickedness that brought about the flood and God’s judgement on the earth.

Alright, let’s have a word of prayer and then can be off for the week. Thank You Lord for Your word. Lord, we realize no matter how long we’ve studied it, how long by Your grace we’ve been Your children, taking in Your truth. Lord we are still delving into the wonders of Your word, seeking to understand it more clearly, more fully, more consistently. Now Lord, we are reminded even when we move into eternity itself, we will be continuing to know and to grow. And the knowledge of the God who is the infinite God. That we can never exhaust the knowledge of You. Lord, what a glorious future we have. Lord, we want to take advantage of the opportunities that are unique to us in this day. As we share the truth of the gospel, and we live as lights in the midst of the darkness of this sinful world. Lord, as we even battle with our own desires that have not yet been totally removed, that sometimes lead us to inconsistency with who we are in Christ. Bless us in the week before us. Lord, may we be bold, may we be faithful. We pray in Christ’s name. Amen.